Webserver

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Abraxis
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 pm

Webserver

Post by Abraxis »

Maybe this is the wrong forum, but I have been researching web development and there is a dizzying array of languages and server side programming available. I know WGNT 3.30 is 15+ years old, and I am wondering just how far behind are we? I don’t think we have to be up on the very latest stuff, but ASP & CSS would be nice. HTML5 as well, with maybe a backend programming language too. Could all be pie in the sky, but I’d like to start the discussion.
Abraxis/Len
Mainline Information Systems

daniel_spain
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:39 am

Re: Webserver

Post by daniel_spain »

Abraxis wrote:
> Maybe this is the wrong forum, but I have been researching web development
> and there is a dizzying array of languages and server side programming
> available. I know WGNT 3.30 is 15+ years old, and I am wondering just how
> far behind are we? I don’t think we have to be up on the very latest stuff,
> but ASP & CSS would be nice. HTML5 as well, with maybe a backend
> programming language too. Could all be pie in the sky, but I’d like to
> start the discussion.

well it uses "frames" so yeah that old. the web server upgrade itself wouldnt be too
bad but the changes will very likely break the activeh pages.
the hting with the internet stuff is mainly security stuff, the security vulnerabilities
are real bad. there are over 100 ways right now someone can "crash" your system
intentionally just through web,ftp, and smtp.

Questman
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:12 pm

Re: Webserver

Post by Questman »

My two cents - make the web pages angular or react, have it be an SPA using APIs from the server, support webassembly for rich front ends / games / graphics stuff, etc.

Abraxis
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 pm

Re: Webserver

Post by Abraxis »

[quote=daniel_spain post_id=437 time=1598983252 user_id=65]
Abraxis wrote:
> Maybe this is the wrong forum, but I have been researching web development
> and there is a dizzying array of languages and server side programming
> available. I know WGNT 3.30 is 15+ years old, and I am wondering just how
> far behind are we? I don’t think we have to be up on the very latest stuff,
> but ASP & CSS would be nice. HTML5 as well, with maybe a backend
> programming language too. Could all be pie in the sky, but I’d like to
> start the discussion.

well it uses "frames" so yeah that old. the web server upgrade itself wouldnt be too
bad but the changes will very likely break the activeh pages.
the hting with the internet stuff is mainly security stuff, the security vulnerabilities
are real bad. there are over 100 ways right now someone can "crash" your system
intentionally just through web,ftp, and smtp.
[/quote]

Obviously the high priority job would be to fix the holes and crashes, but I was thinking more about where to go after that. ActiveH is that fragile? I thought it was kinda an independent program not needing the server side much. But then, I’ve been away from WG since 2002. I’m looking more to be an off ramp than just a brief stop anyway.

[quote=Questman post_id=441 time=1598989019 user_id=51]
My two cents - make the web pages angular or react, have it be an SPA using APIs from the server, support webassembly for rich front ends / games / graphics stuff, etc.
[/quote]

Not sure about what Questman is saying here, but it sounds interesting to me.
Abraxis/Len
Mainline Information Systems

User avatar
Duckula
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:19 am

Re: Webserver

Post by Duckula »

Personally I think it is likely that ActiveHTML and C/S mode will be removed from the next version based on the polls and feedback I have received very few if any sysops are using it and it is full of security issues. As far as a replacements go, as Questman says there are plenty of options but an API that hooks into the BBS would be a great candidate.

SSH and SFTP are also being looked at as replacements for Telnet and FTP.

However no firm decision has been made yet and whatever we do will be with compatibility in mind.
-- Duckula (Site admin / owner )

Questman
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:12 pm

Re: Webserver

Post by Questman »

So, Angular, React, Vue, and several others are Javascript frameworks for web development that create SPAs - single page applications - that load entirely within the browser and manage their state that way. Interactions with the back ends are via APIs that are generally stateless (RESTful, but nowadays, there are other cool technologies that might apply here.. streams, gRPC, graphQL).

If we do the system's web interface with these technologies and have a content management component where folks managing a system can edit text and content blocks easily (think of the TheDraw editor clone in old Worldgroup/MajorBBS to do ANSI, this would be for basic Web formatting), the rest of the app can be Angular or React for advanced developers to modify.

We'd have to think hard about how modules work in that scenario.

The 2nd bit - webassembly - is a way of building compiled code essentially that runs browser native. So nobody would need a fat-client client software anymore. They'd use the browser, as is appropriate. So this would replace any useful aspects of client/server but by no means would be required.

daniel_spain
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:39 am

Re: Webserver

Post by daniel_spain »

Questman wrote:
> So, Angular, React, Vue, and several others are Javascript frameworks for
> web development that create SPAs - single page applications - that load
> entirely within the browser and manage their state that way. Interactions
> with the back ends are via APIs that are generally stateless (RESTful, but
> nowadays, there are other cool technologies that might apply here..
> streams, gRPC, graphQL).
>
> If we do the system's web interface with these technologies and have a
> content management component where folks managing a system can edit text
> and content blocks easily (think of the TheDraw editor clone in old
> Worldgroup/MajorBBS to do ANSI, this would be for basic Web formatting),
> the rest of the app can be Angular or React for advanced developers to
> modify.
>
> We'd have to think hard about how modules work in that scenario.
>
> The 2nd bit - webassembly - is a way of building compiled code essentially
> that runs browser native. So nobody would need a fat-client client software
> anymore. They'd use the browser, as is appropriate. So this would replace
> any useful aspects of client/server but by no means would be required.

just do like synchronet did. so they run a javascript based web front end as well
and when you select a door game to play from the web it openes a window with an rlogin connection
which seemlessly logs you in and using his rlogin hack of how to directly enter the game boom you're
playing a door from the web. In our case you click MajorMud, it rlogins to the system and enters majormud
(own own dma tech) when you exit and the rlogin session terminates the window closes and you're still
sitting at the web-menu.

Abraxis
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 pm

Re: Webserver

Post by Abraxis »

daniel_spain wrote:
> Questman wrote:
> > So, Angular, React, Vue, and several others are Javascript frameworks for
> > web development that create SPAs - single page applications - that load
> > entirely within the browser and manage their state that way. Interactions
> > with the back ends are via APIs that are generally stateless (RESTful, but
> > nowadays, there are other cool technologies that might apply here..
> > streams, gRPC, graphQL).
> >
> > If we do the system's web interface with these technologies and have a
> > content management component where folks managing a system can edit text
> > and content blocks easily (think of the TheDraw editor clone in old
> > Worldgroup/MajorBBS to do ANSI, this would be for basic Web formatting),
> > the rest of the app can be Angular or React for advanced developers to
> > modify.
> >
> > We'd have to think hard about how modules work in that scenario.
> >
> > The 2nd bit - webassembly - is a way of building compiled code essentially
> > that runs browser native. So nobody would need a fat-client client software
> > anymore. They'd use the browser, as is appropriate. So this would replace
> > any useful aspects of client/server but by no means would be required.
>
> just do like synchronet did. so they run a javascript based web front end as well
> and when you select a door game to play from the web it openes a window with an
> rlogin connection
> which seemlessly logs you in and using his rlogin hack of how to directly enter the
> game boom you're
> playing a door from the web. In our case you click MajorMud, it rlogins to the system
> and enters majormud
> (own own dma tech) when you exit and the rlogin session terminates the window closes
> and you're still
> sitting at the web-menu.

Sounds good, but I have also heard JavaScript has it’s own suite of security issues... Is that true? All this talk of security holes makes me want to disable the web interface entirely. Well maybe the ActiveH and frames stuff.... Has anyone heard how secure the Vircom Webserver stuff is?
Abraxis/Len
Mainline Information Systems

daniel_spain
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:39 am

Re: Webserver

Post by daniel_spain »

Abraxis wrote:
> daniel_spain wrote:
> > Questman wrote:
> > > So, Angular, React, Vue, and several others are Javascript frameworks for
> > > web development that create SPAs - single page applications - that load
> > > entirely within the browser and manage their state that way. Interactions
> > > with the back ends are via APIs that are generally stateless (RESTful, but
> > > nowadays, there are other cool technologies that might apply here..
> > > streams, gRPC, graphQL).
> > >
> > > If we do the system's web interface with these technologies and have a
> > > content management component where folks managing a system can edit text
> > > and content blocks easily (think of the TheDraw editor clone in old
> > > Worldgroup/MajorBBS to do ANSI, this would be for basic Web formatting),
> > > the rest of the app can be Angular or React for advanced developers to
> > > modify.
> > >
> > > We'd have to think hard about how modules work in that scenario.
> > >
> > > The 2nd bit - webassembly - is a way of building compiled code essentially
> > > that runs browser native. So nobody would need a fat-client client software
> > > anymore. They'd use the browser, as is appropriate. So this would replace
> > > any useful aspects of client/server but by no means would be required.
> >
> > just do like synchronet did. so they run a javascript based web front end as
> well
> > and when you select a door game to play from the web it openes a window with an
> > rlogin connection
> > which seemlessly logs you in and using his rlogin hack of how to directly enter
> the
> > game boom you're
> > playing a door from the web. In our case you click MajorMud, it rlogins to the
> system
> > and enters majormud
> > (own own dma tech) when you exit and the rlogin session terminates the window
> closes
> > and you're still
> > sitting at the web-menu.
>
> Sounds good, but I have also heard JavaScript has it’s own suite of security
> issues... Is that true? All this talk of security holes makes me want to disable the
> web interface entirely. Well maybe the ActiveH and frames stuff.... Has anyone heard
> how secure the Vircom Webserver stuff is?

written in the 90's as well.

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