Metro Jumping Ship?

[Gardner Denver]

That is our long term goal. But we needed a good starting point. The post V1 plans for GreaterMUD are ambitious and grand. If everything we have planned and lined up comes to pass, it will be a massive improvement over the existing product.

Of course, IMHO, anything that offers support is an improvement at this point...

[dspain]

That is our long term goal. But we needed a good starting point. The post V1 plans for GreaterMUD are ambitious and grand. If everything we have planned and lined up comes to pass, it will be a massive improvement over the existing product.

Of course, IMHO, anything that offers support is an improvement at this point...

i too did the same thing you'll did however i kept it in the house (meaning worldgroup) i remade Tele-arena.

i also have a mud engine i built for WG but it is in the earlystages and only reason i did it was b/c majormud wasnt being actively developed and most sysops wanted to edit it anyway so why not make a mud engine where the sysops dont need any development experience just an imagination.
all data is entered online and it takes effect immediately.

so what im wondering is does the game support full rlogin capabilities?

if i were to use the rlogin client from WG and pass the command line

"192.168.1.111 -MGreaterMUD -P513" will it auto login or require secondary name/pw?

[Gardner Denver]

My understanding is this:

Right now TGS/GM does not support RLOGIN. However the idea has been brought up, and I believe we plan on putting in support for it. It may not be a V1.0 feature since our primary focus is on the game engine rather than the abilities of the game server right now.

Not really an answer I know, but it's the best I can give sadly. Vitoc would be the best one to speak on that. My area of development is more on the client side. (i.e. the status viewer, the real time forums signature generator, ect.)

[dspain]

My understanding is this:

Right now TGS/GM does not support RLOGIN. However the idea has been brought up, and I believe we plan on putting in support for it. It may not be a V1.0 feature since our primary focus is on the game engine rather than the abilities of the game server right now.

Not really an answer I know, but it's the best I can give sadly. Vitoc would be the best one to speak on that. My area of development is more on the client side. (i.e. the status viewer, the real time forums signature generator, ect.)

oh that answer is fine, see as a WG developer i live on this side of the fence, so im looking at plugging it into WG as a server side app, i have spoken to Vitoc he told me to remind him about some SDK he was gonna send me some Teleconference or something and i totally forgot about it maybe ill touch base with him again cause if the connection capabilities will require more i wanna get to work on a rlogin client patch right away or maybe just write one altogether only for GM communication.

[Vitoc]

i assure you they would have a case, and don't take my word for it, contact a lawyer, i too have been around a long time and have seen countless companies try to "duplicate" anothers works, bottom line is you cant take a program you like and clone it with the idea of "making it better" all b/c the company no longer sells it.

There's a lot of "assuring" going around, but the only sure thing here is that none of us are lawyers that specialize in copyright infringement. Can we agree on that?

can you make a mud engine thats similiar, absolutely.

you did it before only b/c they didnt seek damages, if metro goes after Vitoc they will win hands down.

Just like Apple won vs. Microsoft when they went after them for using the same "look and feel", right? Sorry, but I'm going to take the precedence of a court case over your "assurance".

as i said im not against what you'll wanna achieve by far but its being approached totally wrong.

do i like windows vista? nope, can i make my own windows vista? nope.

can i make another o/s with similarities, absolutely.

And this is exactly what we've done. We're a completely different game with a completely different codebase on a different platform. Taking your example, *it is another o/s with similarities*.

there are several cases against developers of WG/MBBS mods for duping games, one such case was Swords & Sorcery from Logicom.

judge ordered cease and desist of the product, there were a few more as well one being where someone used portions of the mbbs source code to make their own bbs software.

Your first example is someone duplicating a mod that runs on WG. That's an entirely different scenario. We haven't used anyone's source code to build TGS or GreaterMUD. We aren't using anybody's intellectual property. They don't have a leg to stand on.

rest assured all metro is waiting for is for it to be distro'd, once that happens the penalties go up WAY up.

tell Vitoc to submit me his fax# ill fax all the documents my lawyer sent me when i wanted to dupe Tele-Arena.

luckily for me Elwynor purchased the rights and i got the go ahead, w/o it i faced over 27 violations if Sean Ferrell had decided to pursue it including money to be paid in the event he felt i profited.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You're talking about distribution of the a product under the original name. I'm talking about distribution of a completely new product written in a completely different language that has completely different features and dependencies and is being created under a completely new name. You're essentially saying Michaelangelo (sp?) would have a case against America for building the Statue of Liberty.

but as i said dont take my word for it, or take this post the wrong way
im not the one against you'll but being someone who was in a similiar situation i have ltos of knowledge on the subject,

And we won't take your word for it. I have no doubt you think you "have lots of knowledge on the subject", but if you're not willing to admit we're comparing apples to oranges right now, then there's really not much more meaningful input you can give on this topic.

[Vitoc]

i too did the same thing you'll did however i kept it in the house (meaning worldgroup) i remade Tele-arena.

i also have a mud engine i built for WG but it is in the earlystages and only reason i did it was b/c majormud wasnt being actively developed and most sysops wanted to edit it anyway so why not make a mud engine where the sysops dont need any development experience just an imagination.
all data is entered online and it takes effect immediately.

so what im wondering is does the game support full rlogin capabilities?

if i were to use the rlogin client from WG and pass the command line

"192.168.1.111 -MGreaterMUD -P513" will it auto login or require secondary name/pw?

Gardner is correct in his answer.

Neither the GreaterMUD module or the telnet server it runs on (TGS) currently support RLogin. TGS is an extremely simple and lightweight telnet server. It does provide group and user-based permissions, and has a simple global system, and as of last night it allows remote administration through a self-hosted WCF service, but not much beyond that. It's perfect for text-game scenarios which is essentially all Sysops will need to host text-based games like GreaterMUD (who needs their own AOL?). If we need to add to TGS in the future, we will, but it will always be a lightweight and inexpensive telnet server.

[dspain]

i assure you they would have a case, and don't take my word for it, contact a lawyer, i too have been around a long time and have seen countless companies try to "duplicate" anothers works, bottom line is you cant take a program you like and clone it with the idea of "making it better" all b/c the company no longer sells it.

There's a lot of "assuring" going around, but the only sure thing here is that none of us are lawyers that specialize in copyright infringement. Can we agree on that?

can you make a mud engine thats similiar, absolutely.

you did it before only b/c they didnt seek damages, if metro goes after Vitoc they will win hands down.

Just like Apple won vs. Microsoft when they went after them for using the same "look and feel", right? Sorry, but I'm going to take the precedence of a court case over your "assurance".

as i said im not against what you'll wanna achieve by far but its being approached totally wrong.

do i like windows vista? nope, can i make my own windows vista? nope.

can i make another o/s with similarities, absolutely.

And this is exactly what we've done. We're a completely different game with a completely different codebase on a different platform. Taking your example, *it is another o/s with similarities*.

there are several cases against developers of WG/MBBS mods for duping games, one such case was Swords & Sorcery from Logicom.

judge ordered cease and desist of the product, there were a few more as well one being where someone used portions of the mbbs source code to make their own bbs software.

Your first example is someone duplicating a mod that runs on WG. That's an entirely different scenario. We haven't used anyone's source code to build TGS or GreaterMUD. We aren't using anybody's intellectual property. They don't have a leg to stand on.

rest assured all metro is waiting for is for it to be distro'd, once that happens the penalties go up WAY up.

tell Vitoc to submit me his fax# ill fax all the documents my lawyer sent me when i wanted to dupe Tele-Arena.

luckily for me Elwynor purchased the rights and i got the go ahead, w/o it i faced over 27 violations if Sean Ferrell had decided to pursue it including money to be paid in the event he felt i profited.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You're talking about distribution of the a product under the original name. I'm talking about distribution of a completely new product written in a completely different language that has completely different features and dependencies and is being created under a completely new name. You're essentially saying Michaelangelo (sp?) would have a case against America for building the Statue of Liberty.

but as i said dont take my word for it, or take this post the wrong way
im not the one against you'll but being someone who was in a similiar situation i have ltos of knowledge on the subject,

And we won't take your word for it. I have no doubt you think you "have lots of knowledge on the subject", but if you're not willing to admit we're comparing apples to oranges right now, then there's really not much more meaningful input you can give on this topic.

sigh ....

1) yes we can agree i am not a lawyer on the situation, however Leigh Greene is, she has been on my retainer since 1995 for both of my companies, i will say this again and apparently i have to repeat myself i notice a lot of this going around when you jump on the defense.
i was gonna do the exact same thing you did, create an engine that would load the ancient DBASE IV databases created by a product called Taedit to do this i needed to open an MCV file created by the program itself which required permission from the IP holder of the program since it was "their works that created it" im not throwing assumptions in the dark here i went through this exact thing and decided against it only and only when my lawyer suggested the repercussions that "could" happen, and since she is well a lawyer i took her word for it.

comparing microsoft to APPLE as your court example isn't the best example after that argument if i had the time i could list hundreds that fell to their demise over that. 2 billion dollar giants arguing over something is hardly similiar, GM nor MM will ever see those figures to be something with reported losses at that rate.
so lets think of it on a worldgroup/majorbbs level.
the brothers that owned Logicomm created a game that just looked similiar and was ordered to cease and decist, so you said you're gonna use a court caase over my assurance, there's one, oh and galaxy traders sued by that TW company, again a win, the list goes on in the gaming department. sure some win, and some lose, why take a chance to be on the losing end? if i thought for a second any of my programs even on a whim of a chance could be court ordered to halt i wouldn't put all the time into it.
duplicating the looks isnt the argument here, what is, is the fact of the content. so many forums out there all have said it i will as well, awesome engine i commend the entire project, use different content, which i understand you did before and noone played, hell i faced the same thing noone played it for a year then one day i logged to 12 new players.
this business isnt a rush business gotta let it build itself.
my example of O/S with different similarities is exactly what this entire post chain has been about the content.
apples and oranges, you repeated yourself, and thus making me repeat myself, refer to the cases mentioned above a judge ordered it in both cases all that hard work gone and in the second instance money traded hands for damages.
"i think i have knowledge" now you're putting me on the defensive in a post that originated all over content violations. sigh.....are we in middle school here? the simple fact that anyone that does even a 5th grade level of research will turn up you cant just use content someone else made, and the bottom line why would you want to? defensive trolling is good however dont fire at people keep it in an opened debate or post your proof that its not against the law, basically saying "i know you think you have the knowledge" isnt viable til you post otherwise, and trust me i could flood the forums with reference links where people lost more than none which is completely pointless when we have already established GM is a great idea and WE as in this community all want to see you succeed therefore we put all the negatives out there so you can counteract it with a positive, i mean honestly you say you keep it closed-source cause its "your baby" hey i know all about that as a developer, if there was even the slightest chance someone could take your baby away why knock people for trying to help you prevent that?
trust me i dont want you to take my word for it but man up hire a lawyer and put us all on quiet time by handling it professionally, i will not let this forum turn into a flame war, me and Gardner posted on the subject then moved on to talking of the server and common client integrations, the only way you will ever prevent those out there against you is to prove em wrong not by words of the mouth but as points of law. sure MEtro hasnt moved on it yet i spoke to one of their devs about a year ago on a completely different issue and his comeback was "we wont make deals like that so another GM situation doesnt arise" it was on the game The Rose.

[dspain]

i too did the same thing you'll did however i kept it in the house (meaning worldgroup) i remade Tele-arena.

i also have a mud engine i built for WG but it is in the earlystages and only reason i did it was b/c majormud wasnt being actively developed and most sysops wanted to edit it anyway so why not make a mud engine where the sysops dont need any development experience just an imagination.
all data is entered online and it takes effect immediately.

so what im wondering is does the game support full rlogin capabilities?

if i were to use the rlogin client from WG and pass the command line

"192.168.1.111 -MGreaterMUD -P513" will it auto login or require secondary name/pw?

Gardner is correct in his answer.

Neither the GreaterMUD module or the telnet server it runs on (TGS) currently support RLogin. TGS is an extremely simple and lightweight telnet server. It does provide group and user-based permissions, and has a simple global system, and as of last night it allows remote administration through a self-hosted WCF service, but not much beyond that. It's perfect for text-game scenarios which is essentially all Sysops will need to host text-based games like GreaterMUD (who needs their own AOL?). If we need to add to TGS in the future, we will, but it will always be a lightweight and inexpensive telnet server.

most sysops you will be dealing with atleast the ones that have emailed me on the subject all wanted to know about integration within WG, hence my post.
Telnet is fine, can it support passed params such as login/pw? my Telnet client also supports sending that info.

[Vitoc]

sigh ....

1) yes we can agree i am not a lawyer on the situation, however Leigh Greene is, she has been on my retainer since 1995 for both of my companies, i will say this again and apparently i have to repeat myself i notice a lot of this going around when you jump on the defense.
i was gonna do the exact same thing you did, create an engine that would load the ancient DBASE IV databases created by a product called Taedit to do this i needed to open an MCV file created by the program itself which required permission from the IP holder of the program since it was "their works that created it" im not throwing assumptions in the dark here i went through this exact thing and decided against it only and only when my lawyer suggested the repercussions that "could" happen, and since she is well a lawyer i took her word for it.

You keep comparing our projects as if they are alike. They are not.

comparing microsoft to APPLE as your court example isn't the best example after that argument if i had the time i could list hundreds that fell to their demise over that. 2 billion dollar giants arguing over something is hardly similiar, GM nor MM will ever see those figures to be something with reported losses at that rate.
so lets think of it on a worldgroup/majorbbs level.
the brothers that owned Logicomm created a game that just looked similiar and was ordered to cease and decist, so you said you're gonna use a court caase over my assurance, there's one, oh and galaxy traders sued by that TW company, again a win, the list goes on in the gaming department. sure some win, and some lose, why take a chance to be on the losing end? if i thought for a second any of my programs even on a whim of a chance could be court ordered to halt i wouldn't put all the time into it.
duplicating the looks isnt the argument here, what is, is the fact of the content. so many forums out there all have said it i will as well, awesome engine i commend the entire project, use different content, which i understand you did before and noone played, hell i faced the same thing noone played it for a year then one day i logged to 12 new players.
this business isnt a rush business gotta let it build itself.
my example of O/S with different similarities is exactly what this entire post chain has been about the content.
apples and oranges, you repeated yourself, and thus making me repeat myself, refer to the cases mentioned above a judge ordered it in both cases all that hard work gone and in the second instance money traded hands for damages.
"i think i have knowledge" now you're putting me on the defensive in a post that originated all over content violations. sigh.....are we in middle school here? the simple fact that anyone that does even a 5th grade level of research will turn up you cant just use content someone else made, and the bottom line why would you want to? defensive trolling is good however dont fire at people keep it in an opened debate or post your proof that its not against the law, basically saying "i know you think you have the knowledge" isnt viable til you post otherwise, and trust me i could flood the forums with reference links where people lost more than none which is completely pointless when we have already established GM is a great idea and WE as in this community all want to see you succeed therefore we put all the negatives out there so you can counteract it with a positive, i mean honestly you say you keep it closed-source cause its "your baby" hey i know all about that as a developer, if there was even the slightest chance someone could take your baby away why knock people for trying to help you prevent that?
trust me i dont want you to take my word for it but man up hire a lawyer and put us all on quiet time by handling it professionally, i will not let this forum turn into a flame war, me and Gardner posted on the subject then moved on to talking of the server and common client integrations, the only way you will ever prevent those out there against you is to prove em wrong not by words of the mouth but as points of law. sure MEtro hasnt moved on it yet i spoke to one of their devs about a year ago on a completely different issue and his comeback was "we wont make deals like that so another GM situation doesnt arise" it was on the game The Rose.

Fact: TGS is a telnet server I wrote from scratch in C# which uses a SQL database store. It is in no way, shape, or form a derivative of WG.

Fact: GreaterMUD is a module that runs on TGS that I wrote from scratch in C# (with some contributions from other developers) which uses a SQL database store. It is in no way, shape, or form a derivative of MajorMUD. I've never seen the source to MajorMUD and I'm not including or distributing any of their intellectual property. (see next couple facts)

Fact: I'm not using MajorMUD's data files. The table structures that GreaterMUD does use are far different than the structures MajorMUD does use because I've never seen MajorMUD's schemas or source.

Fact: I'm not distributing the content without Metro's consent. I've repeated this many times, but apparently not everyone has gotten the message. For testing purposes I am using it, and I've notified Shannon on more than one occasion of this. I told her if they have a problem with it I would immediately take down our test realm and I stand by that promise. I have not received a request from them to stop using their content. They have my phone # and my e-mail address if they wish to contact me. I'm not hiding from them. I've been open and honest from the get-go. Hell, I've offered to work with them on numerous occasions.

You've been told to spend money on a lawyer, just in case, and you've acted on that recommendation. The way I see it, of course a lawyer is going to tell you "you need a lawyer". Think they might have an agenda?

My philosophy is I'm not doing anything wrong. I believe in this so much, I've willingly spent most of my free time over the last few years building this. I also believe if they do come at me, they're in for a battle. It will cost them far more in attorney's fees than they will ever recoup. What do they really stand to gain?

Hell, for months people have been openly posting links on other forums to download illegal copies of WG and MajorMUD ($2000+ in software mind you). And you think Metro is going to waste their time and money coming after me?

I don't agree with nor condone software piracy, and I'm probably the most compliant and outspoken person against piracy out there. All my copies of Windows are legal and genuine. I paid for Office. I paid for Photoshop. I paid for my MSDN subscription. I've paid for all my games. I'm not looking to steal anything, nor have I stolen anything. I'm a good person and a passionate software developer. If what I've done is against the law, consider this whole thing one big learning experience. I certainly won't roll over and die if Metro does decide to come after me. However, If the planets and stars were aligned and somehow my hands were completely tied behind my back by the law (not likely) I'd still walk away from the entire experience with the wisdom and knowledge that only someone who has created something (from start to finish) as sophisticated as a telnet server and MUD could have gained. Going through the entire SDLC with both TGS and GreaterMUD has been an invaluable experience that has made me a better developer and undoubtedly helped me advance my career to where I'm at now. If that's what all this has added up to, I guess I can live with that.

PS. I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but the coder of MegaMUD (Merlin) has recently posted on our forums. He's interested in our project and has stated that he is planning to start working on a new version of MegaMUD (tentatively named GigaMUD) specifically for GreaterMUD. When client and server development are coordinated, good things happen. We will no longer be bound by the restriction of making GreaterMUD MegaMUD compliant. This will help us further distinguish GreaterMUD as a unique product with only minor similarities to MajorMUD.

[dspain]

sigh ....

1) yes we can agree i am not a lawyer on the situation, however Leigh Greene is, she has been on my retainer since 1995 for both of my companies, i will say this again and apparently i have to repeat myself i notice a lot of this going around when you jump on the defense.
i was gonna do the exact same thing you did, create an engine that would load the ancient DBASE IV databases created by a product called Taedit to do this i needed to open an MCV file created by the program itself which required permission from the IP holder of the program since it was "their works that created it" im not throwing assumptions in the dark here i went through this exact thing and decided against it only and only when my lawyer suggested the repercussions that "could" happen, and since she is well a lawyer i took her word for it.

You keep comparing our projects as if they are alike. They are not.

comparing microsoft to APPLE as your court example isn't the best example after that argument if i had the time i could list hundreds that fell to their demise over that. 2 billion dollar giants arguing over something is hardly similiar, GM nor MM will ever see those figures to be something with reported losses at that rate.
so lets think of it on a worldgroup/majorbbs level.
the brothers that owned Logicomm created a game that just looked similiar and was ordered to cease and decist, so you said you're gonna use a court caase over my assurance, there's one, oh and galaxy traders sued by that TW company, again a win, the list goes on in the gaming department. sure some win, and some lose, why take a chance to be on the losing end? if i thought for a second any of my programs even on a whim of a chance could be court ordered to halt i wouldn't put all the time into it.
duplicating the looks isnt the argument here, what is, is the fact of the content. so many forums out there all have said it i will as well, awesome engine i commend the entire project, use different content, which i understand you did before and noone played, hell i faced the same thing noone played it for a year then one day i logged to 12 new players.
this business isnt a rush business gotta let it build itself.
my example of O/S with different similarities is exactly what this entire post chain has been about the content.
apples and oranges, you repeated yourself, and thus making me repeat myself, refer to the cases mentioned above a judge ordered it in both cases all that hard work gone and in the second instance money traded hands for damages.
"i think i have knowledge" now you're putting me on the defensive in a post that originated all over content violations. sigh.....are we in middle school here? the simple fact that anyone that does even a 5th grade level of research will turn up you cant just use content someone else made, and the bottom line why would you want to? defensive trolling is good however dont fire at people keep it in an opened debate or post your proof that its not against the law, basically saying "i know you think you have the knowledge" isnt viable til you post otherwise, and trust me i could flood the forums with reference links where people lost more than none which is completely pointless when we have already established GM is a great idea and WE as in this community all want to see you succeed therefore we put all the negatives out there so you can counteract it with a positive, i mean honestly you say you keep it closed-source cause its "your baby" hey i know all about that as a developer, if there was even the slightest chance someone could take your baby away why knock people for trying to help you prevent that?
trust me i dont want you to take my word for it but man up hire a lawyer and put us all on quiet time by handling it professionally, i will not let this forum turn into a flame war, me and Gardner posted on the subject then moved on to talking of the server and common client integrations, the only way you will ever prevent those out there against you is to prove em wrong not by words of the mouth but as points of law. sure MEtro hasnt moved on it yet i spoke to one of their devs about a year ago on a completely different issue and his comeback was "we wont make deals like that so another GM situation doesnt arise" it was on the game The Rose.

Fact: TGS is a telnet server I wrote from scratch in C# which uses a SQL database store. It is in no way, shape, or form a derivative of WG.

Fact: GreaterMUD is a module that runs on TGS that I wrote from scratch in C# (with some contributions from other developers) which uses a SQL database store. It is in no way, shape, or form a derivative of MajorMUD. I've never seen the source to MajorMUD and I'm not including or distributing any of their intellectual property. (see next couple facts)

Fact: I'm not using MajorMUD's data files. The table structures that GreaterMUD does use are far different than the structures MajorMUD does use because I've never seen MajorMUD's schemas or source.

Fact: I'm not distributing the content without Metro's consent. I've repeated this many times, but apparently not everyone has gotten the message. For testing purposes I am using it, and I've notified Shannon on more than one occasion of this. I told her if they have a problem with it I would immediately take down our test realm and I stand by that promise. I have not received a request from them to stop using their content. They have my phone # and my e-mail address if they wish to contact me. I'm not hiding from them. I've been open and honest from the get-go. Hell, I've offered to work with them on numerous occasions.

You've been told to spend money on a lawyer, just in case, and you've acted on that recommendation. The way I see it, of course a lawyer is going to tell you "you need a lawyer". Think they might have an agenda?

My philosophy is I'm not doing anything wrong. I believe in this so much, I've willingly spent most of my free time over the last few years building this. I also believe if they do come at me, they're in for a battle. It will cost them far more in attorney's fees than they will ever recoup. What do they really stand to gain?

Hell, for months people have been openly posting links on other forums to download illegal copies of WG and MajorMUD ($2000+ in software mind you). And you think Metro is going to waste their time and money coming after me?

I don't agree with nor condone software piracy, and I'm probably the most compliant and outspoken person against piracy out there. All my copies of Windows are legal and genuine. I paid for Office. I paid for Photoshop. I paid for my MSDN subscription. I've paid for all my games. I'm not looking to steal anything, nor have I stolen anything. I'm a good person and a passionate software developer. If what I've done is against the law, consider this whole thing one big learning experience. I certainly won't roll over and die if Metro does decide to come after me. However, If the planets and stars were aligned and somehow my hands were completely tied behind my back by the law (not likely) I'd still walk away from the entire experience with the wisdom and knowledge that only someone who has created something (from start to finish) as sophisticated as a telnet server and MUD could have gained. Going through the entire SDLC with both TGS and GreaterMUD has been an invaluable experience that has made me a better developer and undoubtedly helped me advance my career to where I'm at now. If that's what all this has added up to, I guess I can live with that.

PS. I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but the coder of MegaMUD (Merlin) has recently posted on our forums. He's interested in our project and has stated that he is planning to start working on a new version of MegaMUD (tentatively named GigaMUD) specifically for GreaterMUD. When client and server development are coordinated, good things happen. We will no longer be bound by the restriction of making GreaterMUD MegaMUD compliant. This will help us further distinguish GreaterMUD as a unique product with only minor similarities to MajorMUD.

how are our projects not alike? you remade a game from the 90's
i remade a game from the 90's

i used no original code, i started with a file that said:

/*
SERVER.CS
Tele-Arena.NET Source code
(c) ArcticZone Internet Solutions
*/


went from there, i use SQL-lite for my databasing

sure i made a WG module as well but the original project i began a year ago was a stand alone server so noone needed a bbs to run it, i havent done much to it in about 2months cause i been busy coding custom addons for a few servers but when i got nothing else to do and im not playing WOW i pick it up.

both of us have the same vision we just love a different game.

i think the post has divvied away from the original point, its all about content, if you're not using any of their content most you would have is a petty word war which they couldnt win.
i think someone once told me that maps and such could be copyrighted, although i dont see anyone fighting over "my town has 4 exits that go to the same rooms as yours" was my idea first.

as far as the lawyer thing, yes i keep em on retainer for such situations b/c you never know when someones gonna resurface years later and say hey i wrote that 15yrs ago its my idea i demand royalties.
sure sometimes its a waste of money but at the same time it has saved me from wasting too much time as well, my next project is an MMORPG like WOW,EQ2,lineage,etc... ans there is SOOO much that has to be covered, city names and the likes if anyone can pin the same name on one of their works or if pepsi says hey that can resembles our original design of the 12 oz can, so i like to be covered thats all.

as i said before i am not against you, i look forward to seeing a completed project and hell who's to say one day someone wont say "hey how come Tele-arena don't work with TGS" thats when i make a move

[Malakai]

Too bad software copyright doesn't have the same lifetime as plant patents (20 years) eh?

[Questman]

Copyright lasts longer than patents, Malakai.

Vitoc - I'm not 100% sure if I'm clear what you're doing, so please take this feedback in that vein. But if what you did was code something completely new, with your own code, structures, etc, and then imported the text from MajorMUD, technically, that is copyright violation. The copyright and intellectual property does extend to names, descriptions, etc. The only way your product is a completely distinct product is for it to be completely distinct.

I think that's what Dan's trying to say - that your use of the MajorMUD game itself, converted for use within your engine, is infringement, because the descriptions and design of the game is very essential to what makes MajorMUD MajorMUD. It's not just it's engine. You could argue that the engine is less essential as it's less unique - MUDs behave similarly. The distinguishing factor is the content.

[frcorey]

Copyright lasts longer than patents, Malakai.

Vitoc - I'm not 100% sure if I'm clear what you're doing, so please take this feedback in that vein. But if what you did was code something completely new, with your own code, structures, etc, and then imported the text from MajorMUD, technically, that is copyright violation. The copyright and intellectual property does extend to names, descriptions, etc. The only way your product is a completely distinct product is for it to be completely distinct.

I think that's what Dan's trying to say - that your use of the MajorMUD game itself, converted for use within your engine, is infringement, because the descriptions and design of the game is very essential to what makes MajorMUD MajorMUD. It's not just it's engine. You could argue that the engine is less essential as it's less unique - MUDs behave similarly. The distinguishing factor is the content.

i.e. The also own the whole majormud world too.
story, items and the creatures in it.
it's like stealing someones story and making it your own.

[Vitoc]

Copyright lasts longer than patents, Malakai.

Vitoc - I'm not 100% sure if I'm clear what you're doing, so please take this feedback in that vein. But if what you did was code something completely new, with your own code, structures, etc, and then imported the text from MajorMUD, technically, that is copyright violation. The copyright and intellectual property does extend to names, descriptions, etc. The only way your product is a completely distinct product is for it to be completely distinct.

I think that's what Dan's trying to say - that your use of the MajorMUD game itself, converted for use within your engine, is infringement, because the descriptions and design of the game is very essential to what makes MajorMUD MajorMUD. It's not just it's engine. You could argue that the engine is less essential as it's less unique - MUDs behave similarly. The distinguishing factor is the content.

Thanks for trying to bridge the gap.

To reiterate, we are not going to distribute MajorMUD's content with copies of GreaterMUD without their approval. We are only currently using their content on our test realm for testing to verify all functionality is working as expected. I've made Metro aware of this testing and have promised to stop using it for testing at their request. They have my contact info.

You kind of said it yourself, so I think we're in agreement:

Without MajorMUD's content, it really isn't MajorMUD and they don't really have a case against me. It's just another MUD like the hundreds or even thousands that are already out there (tell me some of them don't look exactly like MajorMUD in look and feel). How many of them use the following format:

Room Name
This is the room description.
Also here: OtherPlayer, AngryMob, NiceMob.
You notice some-item, some-other-item here.
Obvious exits: some direction, some other direction.
[Statline]

That's not copyrightable. Neither is combat, spellcating, or displaying your stats. These are concepts all MUDs use and all of them only vary in the details, as do our systems in GreaterMUD. Our systems aren't replicas because we simply don't know how MajorMUD works internally. Do they look and act alike? Absolutely, but so do dozens of other MUDs out there; we're no exception.

Just to be absolutely clear, we're not going to distribute MajorMUD's content with copies of GreaterMUD unless Metro (or whoever owns it in the future if they sell it) enters an agreement with us.

[dspain]

Copyright lasts longer than patents, Malakai.

Vitoc - I'm not 100% sure if I'm clear what you're doing, so please take this feedback in that vein. But if what you did was code something completely new, with your own code, structures, etc, and then imported the text from MajorMUD, technically, that is copyright violation. The copyright and intellectual property does extend to names, descriptions, etc. The only way your product is a completely distinct product is for it to be completely distinct.

I think that's what Dan's trying to say - that your use of the MajorMUD game itself, converted for use within your engine, is infringement, because the descriptions and design of the game is very essential to what makes MajorMUD MajorMUD. It's not just it's engine. You could argue that the engine is less essential as it's less unique - MUDs behave similarly. The distinguishing factor is the content.

Thanks for trying to bridge the gap.

To reiterate, we are not going to distribute MajorMUD's content with copies of GreaterMUD without their approval. We are only currently using their content on our test realm for testing to verify all functionality is working as expected. I've made Metro aware of this testing and have promised to stop using it for testing at their request. They have my contact info.

You kind of said it yourself, so I think we're in agreement:

Without MajorMUD's content, it really isn't MajorMUD and they don't really have a case against me. It's just another MUD like the hundreds or even thousands that are already out there (tell me some of them don't look exactly like MajorMUD in look and feel). How many of them use the following format:

Room Name
This is the room description.
Also here: OtherPlayer, AngryMob, NiceMob.
You notice some-item, some-other-item here.
Obvious exits: some direction, some other direction.
[Statline]

That's not copyrightable. Neither is combat, spellcating, or displaying your stats. These are concepts all MUDs use and all of them only vary in the details, as do our systems in GreaterMUD. Our systems aren't replicas because we simply don't know how MajorMUD works internally. Do they look and act alike? Absolutely, but so do dozens of other MUDs out there; we're no exception.

Just to be absolutely clear, we're not going to distribute MajorMUD's content with copies of GreaterMUD unless Metro (or whoever owns it in the future if they sell it) enters an agreement with us.

to be honest im a fan of uniqueness, i think diff flavors keeps people interested longer.
i do the same on my test realm im using the original areas only as a "look&feeler" players know to go here and do this and go do this but behind closed doors im whipping up my own storyline,maps,etc... and i want other sysops to do the same opens the doors for 10-15 systems all running Tele-arena each one different give users a variety.
while the original content is good, fresh data is good gets people having to work again, not the same routine day in and day out.

[Questman]

Thanks for the reply Vitoc - if that is the case, then you're fine. I can't see Metro agreeing to let you distribute their content - there would be no reason for anyone to buy MajorMUD if they did - but as long as your distribution isn't using their maps and descriptions, there isn't much of an issue.

[frcorey]

and there is so much more mud worlds that could be bought or free to use for a modern mud. Illusions or Legends, from the TBBS system. I'm sure the writers would be glad to see thier old muds go on to a modern platform. or Ron Dias' King's Quest series too.

[dspain]

Thanks for the reply Vitoc - if that is the case, then you're fine. I can't see Metro agreeing to let you distribute their content - there would be no reason for anyone to buy MajorMUD if they did - but as long as your distribution isn't using their maps and descriptions, there isn't much of an issue.

exactly, i think thats what alot of people are trying to refer to on these other forums but it becomes heated with "i program better than you" flames.
the content is really what sets it apart form being just a database engine.

[dspain]

and there is so much more mud worlds that could be bought or free to use for a modern mud. Illusions or Legends, from the TBBS system. I'm sure the writers would be glad to see thier old muds go on to a modern platform. or Ron Dias' King's Quest series too.

there's sooo many out there that people made for a little fun on their bbs never thinking at this time of year people wouldnt mind porting it to continue gameplay.